Friday, July 8, 2011

On blogging, standards and apologies

Political blogging by its very nature is adversarial. It's us againt them; the good versus the bad; the Right versus the Left. And bloggers, ourselves included, tread a fine line.

Yesterday, Eddie at The Standard accused Wayne Mapp of being drunk in the House earlier in the week. Eddie blogged:

An alert reader sent us this video of Wayne Mapp swaying, slurring and rambling his way through Question Time.

Lockwood Smith had to interrupt him several times before he became completely incoherent. Was he drunk? It’s hard to explain his behaviour otherwise.


Unsurprisingly, the comments poured in, and a number of National MP's were accused of drunkenness. And later in the day Idiot/Savant at No Right Turn blogged in similar vein.

We were on Twitter last night when No Right Turn posted an update; He said:


Idiot/Savant
On NRT: An apology to Dr Mapp



His blog-post goes further:

Earlier today, I posted a post alleging that Dr Wayne Mapp, Minister of Science and Innovation, was drunk in the House at Question Time on Wednesday. I have since been contacted by a member of the Press Gallery who was present in the House at the time, who says

I'd say I know Dr Mapp reasonably well and can tell when he's had a few. In this case I'm 100 percent positive that he was absolutely sober.

What I saw was someone, who doesn't have a great reputation as a public speaker, trying to ham up an answer and not do it very well.

This person is obviously in a better position to judge things than I am from a video, and I see no reason to doubt them. So, my post was incorrect, and I apologise unreservedly to Dr Mapp for the error and for any slur on his character.

Our estimation of Idiot-Savant has risen markedly, even if he doesn't allow comments on his blog; we'd otherwise go there and give him kudos. Anyone can err, but admitting the error and apologising publicly is far rarer. Idiot-Savant deserves to be complimented for taking his licks and accepting responsibility for his actions. We have done the same in the past, and whilst the harm done cannot be undone, a sincere apology goes a long way.

Back to The Standard; we posted Idiot-Savant's post in the comments section. A while after, a commenter agreed with our post, and we replied, with this, followed by a tart comment from lprent:

Inventory2 21.2

I admire NRT for apologizing Nick. Sadly, Eddie’s not even in the same ballpark.

[lprent: I realize that it appears to be essential to your world view that this is a job/life for us, but sadly it doesn't pay enough. The site runs on a volunteer basis with people who have other things that they also do. I've been at Bryce Edwards lecture this evening followed by a knotty bug on the current project. It doesn't look like Eddie has been on since posting. We're kind of busy.

Anyway, I'm tired of explaining these operational matters to you as you whine through one of your periodic episodes of faux outrage and I'm too tired to tolerate it. You are unwelcome here until after the election. That way I won't have to listen to your whinging as you attempt to tell us how we should run this site. Count it as a self-martyrdom offense.

In the meantime I'll point NRT's post out to Eddie which I would have done without the snide repetitions coupled with a attitude of ignorant (but pious) arrogance. ]


It would seem that we've touched a nerve. Idiot-Savant's post has no been added to the original, with the obligatory disclaimer:


Quite frankly, who knows? But I’d generally trust I/S’s judgement. However I don’t appreciate Inventory2 being snide and repetitive about us not immediately following his judgement about what we should do here and when we should be onsite.

Spot the difference? Idiot-Savant immediately acknowledged that he was wrong and apologised unreservedly. To his credit, he has left the original post in place, with an added comment:

Note: The allegations in this post about Dr Mapp are incorrect, and I apologise unreservedly for them. The original post however will remain. Honest people own their mistakes, rather than disappearing them down the memory hole.


In contrast, The Standard hasn't apologised to Dr Mapp, nor do we expect them to. They have grudgingly posted NRT's post, with an aside that it might be true but then again it might not. It's a different to No Right Turn as night is to day.

We don't visit The Standard that often, and obviously we're now persona-non-grata until the end of November. We respect the right for The Standard to have its own policy with regard to comments, moderation and banning, but we reckon that they go far too far.

We've never banned anyone, although we have been sorely tempted. Out of almost 5000 comments, we've deleted probably no more than 20, mainly because they have been off-topic, trolling, or containing personal abuse. But the vast majority of comments go through, and we reckon that it's good that they remain, and that they stand or fall on their merits.

We try hard not to be personal, and to blog on issues; we don't always succeed. Yes; some of the issues involve personalities, but there's a difference between that, and personal attacks. We'll use what we've commented on above as a wake-up call:
we'll make a conscious effort to re-read posts before we hit the "Publish Post" button lest we fall into a self-laid trap, because we're sure that things are going to get pretty intense between now and 26th November.

30 comments:

alex Masterley said...

I2 looks, he shoots he scores!

Anonymous said...

The pompous comment you received at the Standard perfectly displays why it is seldom worthwhile visiting it. I am not sure whether this type of comment is a dividend of immaturity or a deeply ingrained resentment of the world at large. Keep up your great efforts! You are appreciated.

Cadwallader

Inventory2 said...

You're right Cadwallader, and thanks for the compliment. The contrast between I/S owning his comment and taking responsibility and The Standard still allowing comments whilst concedeing that it's possible that they were mistaken couldn't be more stark.

PM of NZ said...

Of late those over at the stranded have gone into full 'shoot the messenger' mode as the rout of Liarbour approaches via the upcoming elections. If your message is deemed not to be supportive of their world view, you cop a ban. The heat in the kitchen is rising. Bereft of ideas, penniless and punch drunk flailing wildly are the hallmarks of Liarbour.

On your particular post, I too was similarly impressed by I/S. Amazing how lprent can write a long winded reply to yourself but not address the real issues.

alex Masterley said...

1. Idiot Savant says alot of things that I disagree with, but he has integrity.
2. The Standard says alot of things (well everything it says) I disagree with, but it does not have integrity.

James Stephenson said...

I say again, the Standard isn't a blog, it's a fanzine.

robertguyton said...

Oh Lordy!

You got banned from The Standard for being snide and repetitive!

I'm lost for words Inv2.

I'll be back to share my concern when I've regained my composure!

Inv2 - banned!

Inventory2 said...

Thanks Robert. It's just as well that I don't ban people for being "snide and repetitive" isn't it. Lynn Prentice had obviously been having a bad day, and I didn't mean to make it worse for him ...

pdm said...

As I have said before I do not visit The Standard in case I catch something nasty.

Welcome to the banned club though Inv - mine at Red Alert runs out some time this month I think - but moderation continues until April next year. All for telling the truth.

Lynn Prentice said...

Still avoiding looking at your behavior I see. Perhaps you should read our policy again, and you really don't appear to understand the difference in scale between your operation and ours.

We are just heading up to 300,000 published comments with between 200 and 800 per day depending on the topic. So obviously we warn and ban regularly because there are always a few idiots going over the edges of what we will allow.

Typically we will ban about two or three people per week for their behavior for periods ranging from a week to permanently if they appear to have a problem learning. This keeps our workload down by removing the worst time wasters from the system.

Now let's look at your behavior. NRT writes a post a bit after 2000. You write a snide comment at TS 30 minutes later. About an hour later you follow up with another comment a hour later effectively complaining that nothing had been done about the first comment and that somehow we should have been watching the site like a hawk.

You are aware that it is a site run by volunteers who often have other things to do. There hasn't been any editors on at the site all evening - something that is easy to look at using the search. And no reaction to your first comment or a couple of others because none of us were onsite...

So after 2300, I run a moderation sweep, reading about a hundred and fifty comments that have accumulated since post work at 1800. I run across your comments doing a behavior that I have explicity warned you about and banned you for before - trying to tell us how we should run our site. You get banned again with an escalated period because of repeating the same stupid mistake yet again and thereby increasing my workload.

I e-mail Eddie who wrote the post, and I add I/S's post to Eddies with my comment because he has my respect for what he writes. Now I haven't even seen the video beyond a few seconds and I do not know who I/S talked to so how could I really comment beyond what I did?

I do however have a very clear idea on how much a fool you are for unreasonably attacking a author on our site. Since you appeared to have not learnt from the previous times I have pointed this obnoxious trait of attacking authors unreasonably to you, and I know that you will whine over here - I add a comment about your behavior to the post.

It looks like you haven't bothered to examine your own behavior. Perhaps you should. But I really don't have any more time to waste on someone tha appears to be incapable of that task.

Anonymous said...

IV2 note the perfect display of "shooting the messenger" by RG over at Home Paddock this morning. He is one of the few contributors I find to be completely without a saving grace. He typifies, the snide, envy ridden and holier than thou attributes so frequently displayed by the mindless left and their greenie misinformed zealot friends! Why bother to debate..."WE know we're right in every instance!"

Cadwallader

Inventory2 said...

@ Lynn - thanks for the comment. Ironically, I had to go to the spam folder to find it; read into that what you will!

Just a quick correction; my previous ban from The Standard (also imposed by you) was actually six months, so it was longer than this one. And it was for daring to suggest that "Eddie" was a Labour Party staffer which is trongly suspected, but denied by you. No name was given or alluded to, but it was enough for you to give me the flick.

If you bothered to read my full post, beyond my criticism of The Standard, you will see that I HAVE reflected on my own behaviour. If I screw up, I apologise unreservedly, as I/S did; and he has risen markedly in my estimation.

I have to chuckle when I read your comment that:

"So obviously we warn and ban regularly because there are always a few idiots going over the edges of what we will allow.

Given that this comment still remains, I guess we now know what you allow, and where the edge is:

oscar …
7 July 2011 at 8:27 pm

and keys daddy was an alcoholic too. The cap doesn’t fall far from the bottle.


Personally, I believe that banning dissenters does nothing to improve The Standard, epsecially when those who follow the party line are given such latitude to make comments which frequently border on defamatory. You'd be far more credible if you tolerated a range of opinions other than your own; but it's your blog; you make the rules, and I respect that.

Thanks again for dropping by; you're always welcome here, as I have yet to have the need to ban anyone! See you in December.

robertguyton said...

Crikey!
Do you think you were repetitive and snide Inv2?

Inventory2 said...

Snide and repetitive? Moi? I don't think so Robert, but more to the point, what do YOU think?

robertguyton said...

I'm snide and repetitive Inv2 - everyone knows that (though I try to be humorous at the same time. (I said 'try' Codswalloper, piddums et al.)

You say you are not.

Therein lies our distinction.

alex Masterley said...

Cadwallader sums up RG perfectly.
Good to see that you are on the must read lists of the left I2

Inventory2 said...

I know your foibles Robert, and sometimes see the intended humour that others miss. Maybe you're just too subtle.

I'm sure I'm repetitive at times, especially on things that I'm passionate about. I try not to be snide. Others will be the judge of whether or not I succeed.

Matthew Beveridge said...

So it seems that The Standard has similar ethical standards as the News of the World. Hopefully they will go the same way.

robertguyton said...

"Others will judge.."
Yep. Lynn did. Hope you really listened (with both ears).

As for Codswalloper, alex, he couldn't judge a budgie show :-)

Inventory2 said...

Oh Matthew; that's harsh; harsh, but true.

robertguyton said...

Too subtle Inv2?

http://homepaddock.wordpress.com/2011/07/08/independence-and-aspiration-vs-dependence-and-envy/#comment-35295

Inventory2 said...

Obviously I took Lynn's comments on board Robert; that's why we are having this debate. No Right Turn, to his eternal credit admitted that he was wrong, and apologised unreservedly. The Standard grudgingly accepted that No Right Turn had admitted that he was wrong and apologised, but noted "Quite frankly; who knows?". Spot the difference?

You have called me on things in the past, and I've apologised. I've done likewise to you, and you apologised. It's the nature of blogging that our emotions can run away from us. The mark of the man, woman or blogger is their willingness to admit their failings in the nmanner that NRT did.

Lynn Prentice said...

I looked at oscar's comment closely with my finger on the button and decided that it was an opinion about a public figure rather than asserting a fact - which is the same test that the courts would use.

Personally, I believe that banning dissenters does nothing to improve The Standard, epsecially when those who follow the party line are given such latitude to make comments which frequently border on defamatory.

So many daft presumptions in such a small statement.

1. We seldom ban people for their opinions.

Almost all of the bans are done to reduce the amount of time and level of boredom required to moderate. It also prevents the site comments from getting too boring to read. In other words the time wasters who cause all of us to exert effort and waste bandwidth.

I will also ban heavily for any behavior that makes my authors less likely to write their opinions.This appears to be your forte - I would guess because you don't like their opinions. But rather than attack their opinions, you attack them personally.

What is fascinating that you then don't like my personally attacking you. I guess you fit the classic bully profile. Quick to be offended at receiving what you dish out. And apparently unable to learn how not to attract my moderating attention.

2. There is no "party line". Most of the authors don't have a party affiliation apart from being from the left. The commentators come from just about everywhere. I really don't care provided they behave themselves on site.

If you're referring to Labour, then most people who read the site without your blinkered assumptions would consider them to be small but noisy minority on site. I'm always surprised at how few supporters Labour has onsite.

But if you think about it, most people who do have close party affiliations for a active party have more productive things to do than spend lots of time commenting or writing posts. It does rather explain the large presence of Act, Mana, Alliance, and other fringe parties online...


3. It is clear from your statements that you have no idea of the actual law around defamation, libel, etc in NZ. I know rather too much. We don't allow much to happen that is too close to the bounds for the different types of people that it applies to. Read the judgement in the Lange vs Atkinson case as it applies to politicians.

Actual defamatory statements about people, rather those that are in your inadequate judgement, receive very short shift and are the cause of a significant number of permanent bans.

It sounds like you caught IrishBill on your last ban. All I remember is the type of offense - attacking the authors on the site. Since you repeated it, you got my current stupidity sentence. If I'd had the details you'd have received a double up. Lucky for you it was close to midnight.

But I will bear it in mind for next time you repeat.

robertguyton said...

Some detail and context here Inv2:

"Back to The Standard; we posted Idiot-Savant's post in the comments section"

You did what?
You have castigated me for posting a link to NoRightTurn on your blog and belittled Idiot/Savant at the same time but now it seems it's okay for you to drop I/S's post into The Standard?
Please explain.

Anonymous said...

RG You are for once right! I couldn't judge a budgie show but I can pick a turkey from a considerable distance!

Cadwallader

TCrwdb said...

I have teenage kids with more maturity than the mob over at The Standard...

gravedodger said...

I have inadequate Breathing apparatus to go near The Substandard but in earlier days did hold my nose and as you, Iv2 point out, The boy with the girls name is very quick to take out reasoned argument that opposes their threads but all of the frothing rubbish that comes from their bench is never moderated apparently.
For such a busy volunteer he spent considerable time and ink in failing to add anything or even rebut you however that is the socialist way in debate, just shout louder and longer and wait for the people with real jobs to give up and then call it a victory.

You are back in esteemed company Iv2,

Anonymous said...

Gravedodger: I found the sand-soap I needed in my long hot showers following even a brief visit to the sub-Standard, played hell with my skin.

Cadwallader

robertguyton said...

Codswalloper, all puffy and wrinkled from his never-ending hot-shower, de-foliating with a block of sand-stone, furiously scrubbing his nether-regions till they bleed, knuckles white, back bent to the task...
TOO MUCH INFORMATION CODS!!!

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