Wednesday, October 17, 2012

The burden of proof

John Mortimer's wonderful character Rumpole called it the Golden Thread of the Justice System; the presumption of that a person is innocent until proven guilty.

Things are a little different in politics, but Annette King and Labour seem to be taking things to a new level. We've just listened to the weekly session with Ms King, Steven Joyce and Mike Hosking on Newstalk ZB. It seems that Annette King is the president, secretary and treasurer of the ABC Club (Anyone But Cunliffe) as she has been the only Labour MP to defend the beleaguered David Shearer so far.

But in Annette King's world, this is how it works; you make an allegation based on hearsay, and the onus is on the person against whom the allegation is made to prove you wrong. And even when they do, you continue to repeat the allegation.

Ms King is adamant that David Shearer is on solid ground with his GCSB allegations because Labour's GCSB mole told them so. No matter that there was NEVER a video or audio recording, and no matter that the GCSB has categorically denied that any video or audio files (if they ever existed) have been deleted. Labour will continue to repeat the allegation ad nauseum in the hope that mud will stick.

This is very poor form from Annette King and from David Shearer. Labour should simply accept that its attempt to smear John Key has failed. The longer they continue to try and fight this battle in the Court of Public Opinion, the more damage will be done.

Labour was kicked out of office in 2008 in part because people were sick and tired of the mud-slinging. The Party received its lowest-ever party vote in 2011 as the public noticed that nothing had changed. And even now, Labour continues to fling mud. That David Shearer has politicised the GCSB and made serious allegations of misconduct which he cannot substantiate is a new low.

If David Shearer has proof of what he has alleged went on at the GCSB, let him table it. If he does not, he should shut up, after apologising to those public servants whose reputations he has tarnished with his attempt to play "gotcha" with John Key. The burden of proof is entirely on the person who has made the allegations; David Shearer.

37 comments:

Bunk said...

Pretty quiet on here today, I wonder why.....

Out of Office said...

Let's weigh up, shall we, Shearers terrible effort to force the truth from Key, with John Bank's lie over suppressing his statement to the police, and John Key's continued refusal to take action over Banks.
How do those sacles look to you?
Even?
Yet you chose to feature Shearer, rather than Banks and Key. I know you have a bias toward the National Party, just as I do away from them, but this is quite a sad state of affairs for you and your blog, in my opinion.

Draco said...

It looks as though that proof could easily be found, according to Gordon Campbell.

"We are now being told that yes, a camera was present at the controversial GCSB kitchen gathering in February with Prime Minister John Key, but – just like the PM’s memory – it was not switched on. Either way, the chances of that tape emerging into daylight are about as likely as…oh, the Parliamentary committee for the security services demanding that it be produced, and/or a briefing on just what is commonly recorded by security cameras within the GCSB building, and who has custody of said tapes."

You will support the presentation of the information Campbell suggests, Keeping Stock? In the interests of truth, of course.
What do you say?

Keeping Stock said...

@ Out of Office - Shearer has made an allegation that some person or persons in GCSB has destroyed a video or audio recording of the PM. If that is the case, it would be a most serious situation. He cannot provide any proof, yet he insists that he is right, and I am calling him on it. If he has the proof, let him show it. If not, he MUST apologise to those public servants whose integrity he has questioned.

Out of Office said...

You are calling him out on it? Righty-o then!
Are you also calling Banks out on his lie about the police statement? Are you also calling Key out on his appalling lack of oversite of the Ministry he alone has responsibility for?
Didn't think so!

Draco said...

Campbell adds this and I think it's accurate:
"So now we have the spooks who did not speak to set alongside the camera that wasn’t switched on and the PM who can’t remember a thing about his visit to the GCSB, or about his briefing concerning an unprecedented FBI/Police raid with choppers, on a mega-millionaire’s residence located in his own electorate. What is there about Kim Dotcom that engenders such debilitating spasms of Political Alzheimer’s in everyone – John Banks, John Key, the entire GCSB – who happens to cross his path?"

Denise said...

There very obviously was a recording Keeping Stock. Out here in general Public Land, we know Shearer is telling the truth and Key is not. Some people though are easily fooled. Key speaks to those people.

Simon deForce said...

Yes, David Shearer's reputation is tarnished by his latest behaviour but John Key's is really eroded. Just being involved in the mess damages his reputation daily. The mess he's got himself in over the GCSB is far, far more damaging than anything Helen Clark had to defend and it's not over yet by a long shot.
Key should come clean, but can't.

Nothing Trivial said...

"Labour will continue to repeat the allegation ad nauseum in the hope that mud will stick."

Speaking of mud, who was the first MP to wear gumboots in the Parliamentary Debating Chamber?

Keeping Stock said...

Well spotted NT; here's hoping that Holly Walker hadn't been doing an organic gardening at the weekend!

Anonymous said...

Keeping Stock, you just defend JK< no matter what. Call him out, he is being dishonest.

What on earth is the anyone but Cunliffe club? Labour is a unit.

Keeping Stock said...

"Labour is a unit"

You're taking the Mickey; right?

Garry said...

Key sounded totally plausible in Parliament today. Shearer had damp ammunition and has misfired badly.
Cunliffe sounded really competent, and should fare better with the rank and file Labour supporters getting more say under their revised selection process. The Labour Caucus will not support Cunliffe. Chippie looks the best bet down the track a little. He only has to come across better than Russel Norman for Labour to improve in the polls.

Gloria W. said...

"Wolfensohn that has been put on “gardening leave”,"

Gosh!
That's interesting!

S. Gourlie said...

"Key sounded plausible.."

You have a tin ear, Garry!

Garry said...

You listened this afternoon and thought Key sounded implausible, S.Gourlie?

Or are you hard wired to bag Key whatever?

jabba said...

"Denise said...
There very obviously was a recording Keeping Stock" .. what is wrong with you lot .. prove it or shut up.

jabba said...

"Denise said...
There very obviously was a recording Keeping Stock" .. what is wrong with you lot .. prove it or shut up.

S. Gourlie said...

Garry
Given that Key is lying, sounding plausible tells you two things:
He good a lying.
You are crap at detecting lies.

Denise said...

jabba - prove that Key doesn't tell lies, or shut up!

Garry said...

S.Gourlie is hardwired to believe that Key is wrong, whatever.
Calling Key a liar on this blog is S.Gourlie's biggest audience.
Nobody is going to vote on S.Gourlie's say-so.
Key has a much bigger audience, and only has to sound more plausible than David Shearer to the voting public.
Key has more chance of convincing people than does S.Gourlie.
What I think and say about Key is immaterial. I certainly would not expect S.Gourlie to be swayed, how ever compelling Key might be.

Keeping Stock said...

You guys just don't get it do you; repeating David Shearer's smears and untruths doesn't make them any more true. Key doesn't have to prove anything; the onus is on David Shearer to come up with something convincing. It didn't take Patrick Gower long to wash his hands of Shearer, and see what they're saying about Fran Mold over at The Standard:

Well, Fran Mold has done it now. It was surprising to many that she kept her job as Labour’s head spin doctor after her part in Labour’s worst election performance in generations. But this tops it. She’s got Shearer to go large based (it is alleged*) on her man’s claim that there is a tape of Key talking to the GCSB in February about Dotcom. There may be a video but no proof’s emerged, and it’s the proof that counts.

Shearer looks bad. His brand was the straight up, honest guy who doesn’t play gotta politics. Now, that’s taken a big hit. And what for? To try to land some killer blow on Key? He was already going down. All Fran’s foul-up has done is give Key a breather and put Shearer on the ropes.

You don’t get a bigger fuck-up than that as a spin doctor. You would think she was a double-agent, expect a double-agent wouldn’t be so audacious to go for a fuck-up this big.

I can’t imagine she’ll be around much longer.

- Sash


http://thestandard.org.nz/frans-fracas/

That's what YOUR people are saying! The right-leaning blogs don't need to add anything.

S. Gourlie said...

"Key has a much bigger audience, and only has to sound more plausible than David Shearer to the voting public"

That's right, Garry. Shearer made a mess of his job, which was to get Key to tell the truth. Key made an excellent job of escaping Shearer's 'trap' and effortlessly extending his original lie. people like you admire that sort of behaviour. Others are dismayed that lies can prevail the way they are doing at the moment. Do you accept John Banks' stories? Do you accept Key's protection of Banks? Are you not just a little suspicious of key's truthfulness, based on his behaviour around Banks?

Adolf Fiinkensein said...

Good Grief, Inventory.

What have you done to deserve such an aggressive invasion of pustulent trolls from the infections diseases ward known as 'The Standard?'

Anonymous said...

yep, I was taking the Mickey, KS. Well spotted.
But Key is lying, that much is obvious.

Garry said...

I find Key eminently more reasonable than S.Gourlie.
S.Gourlie has a narrow agenda to try and destroy Key in the eyes of reasonable people, otherwise S.Gourlie would be commenting on blogs of the left.
Just as he who praises everything praises nothing, so he who criticises everything criticises nothing. S.Gourlie is one of those.
All that criticisism for no reward.
Oh dear, how sad, never mind. S.Gourlie probably has nothing better to do.

S. Gourlie said...

So, Garry, these questions too challenging for you then?

" Do you accept John Banks' stories? Do you accept Key's protection of Banks? Are you not just a little suspicious of key's truthfulness, based on his behaviour around Banks?"

It seems you can't bring yourself to answer them. I suppose that's because they are damning and you can't bear to acknowledge that there's something very rotten in the State of Denmark.

Michael said...

It's a week since Shearer announce there was a tape of John Key's speech, and no evidence to back it up has appeared. Neither has any evidence appeared that John Key mentioned GCSB involvement in the Kim Dotcodotnz fiasco.

I onced worked at Parliament for an MP and we got a beauty of an allegation from an anonymous source. It had no evidence but a ring of truth, it would have ended another politicians career that week. But we couldn't get the hard evidence needed to release it, so it ended up as no more than a rumour.

Shearer has proved himself too trigger happy with allegations, his next allegation will need concrete proof or he will never be believed again.

Garry said...

Key sounded totally plausible in Parliament today. Shearer had damp ammunition and has misfired badly.
Cunliffe sounded really competent, and should fare better with the rank and file Labour supporters getting more say under their revised selection process. The Labour Caucus will not support Cunliffe. Chippie looks the best bet down the track a little. He only has to come across better than Russel Norman for Labour to improve in the polls.

S. Gourlie said...

So, Garry - can't face up to some simple questioning then?
Not impressive and not admirable. You are behaving like John key. I'm surprised you didn't just say 'dunno'.
How about this for proof that Key lies, as per the topic of this post:

"Key’s just straight up lying to the media now on easily verifiable facts. A 3news poll shows 57% said Parliament got it wrong keeping the drinking age at 18%. Key says: “That’s one of the reasons I voted for it to go to 20 – in line with what the public thought – but Parliament didn’t vote that one.” In reality, he voted split age and, when that was knocked out, to keep it 18."

Garry said...

Key sounded plausible in Parliament yesterday.

S.Gourlie sounded terribly upset and angry yesterday and today.
Anger is an ugly motivator.
Is it just people on the left that react this way?

Chris Hipkins sounded pretty sharp in Parliament yesterday, although his questions to Hekia Parata got too convoluted to pin her down to the answer he wanted.
David Shearer is a dead man walking.

S. Gourlie said...

So, Garry - can't face up to some simple questioning then?

Garry said...

In this post, KS said:
"Labour should simply accept that its attempt to smear John Key has failed. The longer they continue to try and fight this battle in the Court of Public Opinion, the more damage will be done.

Labour was kicked out of office in 2008 in part because people were sick and tired of the mud-slinging. The Party received its lowest-ever party vote in 2011 as the public noticed that nothing had changed. And even now, Labour continues to fling mud."


Carry on S.Gourlie.
Don't quit while you are behind.

True That said...


Key does not care a damn who knows that he is always lying. The only thing that matters is that the constant lying seems to be working so well for him. His supporters ethical values do not embrace the sin of lying.
Key has an agenda, it is being pushed through – in fact most of the his plans are already completed if we look back – so he couldn’t care less what anyone thinks.
He just sips in another breath, shrugs his shoulders and slithers away. No one has really laid a glove on the man – and it won’t until after he’s gone and there is an enquiry that will take 3 years to complete (ala Blair).
Seriously, Key will complete this term and disappear to a top job at a bank somewhere – he couldn’t give a toss. Perhaps he will end up in the US (if civil war hasn’t broken out).

S. Gourlie said...

Garry - you are an interesting example of someone too frightened to answer some straightforward questions, who prefers instead to keep your focus on Labour's ills.
I don't care at all about Labour, or Shearer and the rest of them. I can't help but think though, that your refusal to address questions politely asked of you, reveals a cowardice that's quite rare.
How about you prove me wrong by answering them. There's still time for you to save face.

Bunkum said...


Bunk said...
Pretty quiet on here today, I wonder why.....

36 comments.

Have you worked out yet, why the thread is so 'quiet"?
Do share your thoughts, Bunky.

Keeping Stock said...

@ S Gourdie, True That and others; the constant repition of the line "John Key is a liar" without any proof to back it up does not make John Key a liar.

We are going around in circles here, so comments are now closed.